INTERVIEW SPECIAL: The State of Things
A conversation about the past, present, and future of occupied Palestine with Ahmad Al-Bazz.
While volunteering with SkatePal in April, I had the good fortune of meeting Palestinian journalist and documentarian Ahmad Al-Bazz at a rooftop café in Nablus. Right away, we started talking about the occupation and Palestine’s potential futures, and it became clear that Ahmad knew more about Palestine than any other fluent English speaker I had met during my stay. I hadn’t planned to conduct an interview, but I wanted to ask a few questions on the record and Ahmad graciously agreed. What follows is a condensed and edited version of our conversation.
Settlements are illegal under international law. Do you think the global superpowers will ever do anything substantial to stop Israel from building more of them?
Uh, no. It’s been against international law forever. Our problem is not only with Israel, it’s with the global colonial system ruled by the west.
I also, by the way, don’t really care about which settlement is illegal, which one is legal. For me, even Tel Aviv is a settlement. No difference. Almost 97% of the Palestinian population of Jaffa, today’s Tel Aviv, were ethnically cleansed from the city in favor of Israeli settlers — most of them are in UNRWA camps to this day. At the same time, all Jews around the world can get Israeli citizenship and live in the houses of those who were expelled. And we, as the people who used to be there — I don’t want to say the “original” or “indigenous” people, but we lived there for hundreds of years — are not allowed.
Resolution 194 by the United Nations General Assembly [which gives refugees the right to return to their homes] has been on paper for decades, but has never been applied. No one is interested in the U.N.’s G.A. resolution 194, you know why? Because it touches the main body of Israel and changes its demography. This is a red line.
The Palestinian leadership, at a certain part of our history, said, let’s give up historical Palestine and follow the international community, and maybe international law will get us something within the 1967 borders. Now, we are waking up and seeing that it has not gotten us anything, but it has damaged our concepts. Now you go to a child and ask, what is a settlement? He will tell you, this one, because it’s in the West Bank, but not that one, because it’s in so-called Israel.
On the ground, the colonial activities are happening every single day, in both the 1967 and 1948 territories. Sometimes, 1948 territories [lands within the 1948 borders of Israel] witness more. Do you know, for example, that the highest number of demolitions last year happened inside of what today we call Israel? In the Naqab [Negev] area, 3,000 Palestinian structures were demolished. In the whole West Bank, around 900. That’s an OCHA number from the U.N. So yeah, the colonization project is still happening everywhere.
To summarize, Palestinians accepted that only part of the country is occupied, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and tried to apply the Western legal techniques, but it has not been working. They gave up their principles for nothing.
So international law has provided no help. What about the Boycott, Divest, and Sanction (BDS) movement?
It’s one of the effective and popular options. According to the government of Germany, according to the government of Israel, and Canada too, they see it as economic terrorism. So even this peaceful way of expressing your opinion is being banned because it’s been effective. Israel has been losing so much money — concerts have been canceled, football teams said we’re not coming, and Israel is not interested in being isolated. They want to be acceptable. But Palestinians say, don’t normalize occupation and colonization. We don’t want the world to see what’s happening as normal, to see Israel as a normal place, as long as the colonial structure remains.
Even in the event that BDS succeeds in getting Israel to stop building new settlements, is there any chance Israel would open up its current borders to all Palestinian people? That there would be no divide and that everyone in Israel and Palestine would have equal rights and unrestricted movement?
This is not what Palestinians are hoping to achieve, politically, but I will answer your question: Yes, but only if they get rid of the Zionist mentality that the country is for Jews only.
Do you think that’s possible?
Yeah, one day, but I don’t know how to get there. For decades, the Palestinian struggle was demanding one thing: one democratic state for everyone. Refugees should come back, the colonial structure must be dismantled, and there will be one kind of [identification] document. The settler community will no longer be settlers. Live together!
Israel didn’t want that, so they said not one state. Two states? No, not two states either. Israel wants Israel, and only Israel, with a few Palestinian enclaves within it. For them, even this is not ideal, but that’s the best Zionist dream you can achieve considering that some Palestinians are still in the country. What do you do with them? Exclude them from your state, and at the same time, don’t give them a state of their own.
Sadly, they have the keys to a solution. Palestinians don’t. For Israelis, it’s the Jewish dream that they managed to create, and they will always say, “Why do you want to demolish our dream?” I appreciate your dream but it’s taking place at my expense. This is the problem. If you went to an empty island, it would work perfectly.
Even in a democratic single state, there would still be fierce divisions along racial and religious lines. What might be some solutions to the violence that those conflicts would likely continue to produce?
First of all, there is no magic solution. Everything takes time. Even if the political leaders say, “Ah, here is a solution,” it does not mean that on the following day, everything will be fine. It’s been ages of problems, of tensions. But if you do it properly, if you do land reforms, you [prosecute] those who need to be taken to court… it takes time. Staying within the current situation is not better. What you’re asking about would be the responsibility of the two populations in the post-colonial future.
Who could be against a one-state solution? It sounds like the best available option. It sounds the fairest for everyone, the colonized and the colonizers. So, who could be against it? The racist person. The person who thinks he’s superior. Colonialism is about acquisitions, and you don’t give them up. Why does Israel need a solution, you know? It doesn’t need one. They’re taking everything already.
So that’s why many people from the Global South have been theorizing that if you want to get to a solution, you have to force it. Those who are upstairs never feel the need for a solution unless they pay a price. That’s the theory of violence — which I hate, because I don’t like violence — but sadly it seems true.
If we look at the Algerian War as a model, the Algerians did succeed in expelling their French colonizers, but that revolution has not produced a stable and equitable Algerian state in the long term. So a violent revolution alone can’t solve the issue, right?
Yes, of course, because in the Arab region, all those who got rid of colonial powers have just reproduced oppression. Look at the government of Syria. Look at Egypt. It’s just that those producing oppression have a different identity. That’s why I’m not a fan of the so-called Palestinian Authority (P.A.). It does not represent our battle for decolonization and liberation. If they get a state of Palestine within the West Bank, I will leave the following day, because it’s going to be an oppressive regime.
If your struggle is not principled, you will get rid of a certain party, but you will do the same things. Your battle should be principled, and it should be happening on many levels.
Why would a Palestinian state be an oppressive regime?
Let’s say the current P.A. will turn one day into a real state, and it appears it will. We already see all the symptoms.
There is zero democracy — there is no one elected. Look at the head of the P.A. [Mahmoud Abbas]. He’s been there for ages, he’s 87, he’s the head of the P.A., the head of Fatah, and the head of the PLO [Palestinian Liberation Organization]. He’s the head of everything. Many Palestinians believe that the P.A., or let’s say the PLO, has kidnapped the Palestinian revolution.
Currently, it’s an authority with no authority. They call themselves a state, starting in 2012 when the U.N. admitted them as a non-member observer state, but on the ground they are just an authority working under the supervision of the Israeli military government.
There’s another layer of those [Palestinians] who are benefiting from the current situation such as the so-called ministers and so-called officials. They have certain interests that they are growing.
How are they benefitting?
Business. BMC permits [“business man cards,” which facilitate travel between Israel and the occupied territories], ties with the Israeli authorities, which means the Israeli government is giving you more privileges because you have a big business or you’re connected to the P.A. And more and more corrupted people started growing within the security departments of the P.A. Each one thinks this is his kingdom.
Regarding Mahmoud Abbas, who you mentioned, we have spoken to our young, progressive-minded skater friends in Ramallah and they say, “We have no faith in the P.A., we have no faith in Abbas, he’s completely corrupt, he doesn’t work in the interests of the people.” They call him a puppet of Israel—
Exactly.
—and then we spoke to a woman in Asira, and she was saying, “Well, I can’t criticize the Palestinian leadership because they’re the only people in power who we have, and if my brother says something that I don’t like, I can’t tell him that he’s no longer my brother and cast him out of our parents’ house.” It seemed like she was advocating an uncritical support for the government just because they are Palestinian and they have some power relative to other Palestinians. Do you think that mindset is widespread?
Sadly, yes. We call it Al Qabalia in Arabic, which means being connected to the Qabila, the tribe. So whatever your tribe does, they are right, simply because they are you. It’s stupid! I’ll kick my father out of the house if he’s a bad person, or I will leave. Why should you care about ethnic connection more than principles?
And in terms of power, what power is that lady fearing to lose? In the past 28 hours, six Palestinians got killed, from the north to the south of the West Bank. Where is the P.A.? If the Israeli commander calls them and says, “Hey, we have a security operation in this area, leave,” they leave. I can show you a video of that — there is a famous video of them filmed in Ramallah. They left and the army came. It’s one computer, we say in Arabic. So there’s nothing to lose, for one, and also she should be more caring about principles than about tribe.
Our young Palestinian friends in Ramallah say Ramallah is a bubble. Do you agree?
I agree that it’s a bubble. It’s not the only bubble, but it’s maybe the best one to describe as a bubble because the offices of the P.A., all of the so-called ministries, all the NGOs, all the international community is there. There is Israel from north to south, east to west, except for some tiny areas here in the eastern part of the country that are called Area A, and this is where unwanted people and refugees are living. It’s a smart system that the Israelis managed to create. They put an autonomy on us just to get rid of the troubles of cleaning, health, education — but not security. And yeah, they are monitoring from the checkpoint of each city, the gate of each city. Even Nablus is a bubble — look. You don’t see an army, even though they are right there, [pointing to the military base on a mountain overlooking Nablus] you see? Less than one kilometer.
Within these enclaves, you can enjoy a luxury life if you want to — you can arrange festivals, you can organize concerts. Do everything that does not touch the Israeli colony you’re living within, don’t ask for your rights, think of yourself, your business, your education, and never think about communal issues — this is how you can enjoy a bubble.
I call it the enclave system. Now we’re in the 2020s, Israel is almost done with their massacres and ethnic cleansing — the big ones, I mean — so what do you do with the people who remain, like me? You create a system for them. I’m talking about lands that they don’t want to annex and at the same time they don’t want to leave. So this is the temporary situation that is staying forever. That’s their only way to deal with us.
The P.A. and this body of Area A has created a confusion for young generations. These people who grow up here don’t know how to see the occupation, or the colonization, as I like to call it. And to give you evidence that the P.A. is aware of the system of enclaves, look at Mr. Abbas. Whenever he wants to threaten Israel, what does he say? What is his biggest tool? He says, “I’m gonna dismantle the P.A.” He’s not stupid, he realizes that this is the biggest danger for Israel, to say, okay, I leave these enclaves for you. Take them and I want to see how Israel is going to live with a country that has some areas with an unwanted population. It’s going to be pure apartheid with no makeup.
Is the ethnic cleansing really over?
They are still cleansing certain areas, mainly in the so-called Area C, which contains the lands surrounding the enclaves. And where do you throw the people you’re cleansing? The enclaves. If you go to the Jordan Valley — and I documented this — they go to people, they demolish their places, they collect their belongings on trucks, they drive to the border of Area A, they throw it there, and they tell them, “Get inside.” Because simply by being there [in Area C], they’re in Israel. Even though it’s the West Bank, it’s Israel on a practical level. So the enclaves are the places where Israel wants all Palestinians to squeeze themselves.
This is a historical thing. The Gaza Strip was created with the same technique. Israel ethnically cleansed dozens of Palestinian towns in the south and pushed the refugees into one piece of land, which we today call the Gaza Strip. More than 75% of its residents are refugees. Their lands are taken by Israeli settlers.
This is still happening on a smaller scale across the country.
Do you think Israel will continue taking land in the West Bank by building new settlements? And will this force the existing enclaves to grow smaller and smaller?
This is what they have been doing for 100 years in all parts of the country, so yeah, of course. They are doing the maximum to take the lands of the West Bank. For example, in Asira, two years ago, there was an attempt.
Then they went to Beita, one of the biggest villages of Nablus — very populated — and right next to it they installed a caravan. People there are unique in the way they are protesting. It’s very serious, very organized. They took the land, then [the Israeli military ordered the settlers to evacuate], and then they said, okay, we declare it as a military area. And then over time, the military use will become settler use. This is the order of things in terms of taking land.
A line I hear a lot from American liberals is, “Well, of course we agree that Palestine gets the short end of the stick, and the plight of the Palestinian people is sad, but the onus is on the corrupt Palestinian leadership to come to the negotiating table in good faith and work out something reasonable.” Or recently, you’ve likely seen the arguments: look at how the international community has come together to support Ukraine and Ukrainian refugees, while Palestine has been experiencing siege and occupation and massacres for years and the international community has made excuses. And people say, well, the difference is that we can trust Ukraine with resources. We can trust the Ukrainian leadership if we send them military and financial support, whereas we can’t trust Fatah, we can’t trust Hamas. What’s your response to that line of reasoning?
First of all, I agree that the current leadership, the P.A., is corrupted. That’s not a topic of discussion. But using that argument is a bit mistaken, because these people are setting a certain point in history as a starting point for their argument. When was Hamas created? 1989. Very late reaction. Even the P.A., it was created in 1993. Look at all the ages and ages and ages before. There is zero international will in solving this.
Historically, we’ve seen the U.S. trying to support popular struggles against the will of their own governments. If they have the will to support the decolonization battle of the Palestinians, they will do something.
America does what it wants to do, for its own interests and for the interests of its ally, Israel.
As long as the Israeli state does exist, is there any kind of Palestinian government you would want to see?
Under the Israeli colonial reality, I don’t want to see a Palestinian government.
Wouldn’t that mean direct rule by Israel?
That’s not the point. I do not want my people to live in an illusion. This is not a conflict between two states. If it were, of course I would be happy with having a government, but no, it’s like the U.S. or Australia or New Zealand. It’s settler colonialism, so of course I’m against these excluded people having their own government, supervised by the colony, to serve a function within the colonial system.
And by the way, even in any future solution, I don’t care about having a Palestinian national government. My nationalism is very low — what I care about is rights. Ideally, you have all the 7-8 million settlers and all the 7-8 million Palestinians, you have Palestinian refugees coming back, you dismantle the colonial structure, you do land reforms, and then this population will create a new flag, a new name — I don’t know, let’s call it the Holy Land, I don’t care about this — and then they can have an election, select a new president. This is kind of what happened in South Africa. It will be a normal place. Not a good place for those who want to be in the majority, who want to be superior, who fear that the other will rule them. They should go away — including Palestinians who think that way.
It happened in South Africa, but they forgot to decolonize one thing, which is the wealth, the economic side. It’s nice in theory, but black people are still poor, and the rich who stole everything are still rich. Hopefully, we can learn from that. Decolonization is a long process. It’s not necessarily about having states.
That sounds very romantic. But hopefully, one day, it may become true.
You’ve used a framework of colonization to describe the occupation throughout our conversation. Many postcolonial theorists write that social, democratic, and economic equality cannot exist under capitalism. Do you think that framework is useful here?
In a very strict, principled vision, yes. It’s a must. However, sadly, this world is mainly capitalist. It’s very ambitious to say the one democratic state that I want should not be capitalist. It’s not the world we’re living in. You get to the one democratic state, it’s capitalistic like the rest of the world, and then you start your new struggle with the new citizens of the new country.
Special thanks to Owen Godbert.